[neilestrick]

My favorite was a kiln in a large office that was being used as storage. The kiln was too close to the wall, the floor was carpeted, and the room was being used for paper storage. Hundreds of reams of paper on shelves surrounding the kiln. Pyromaniac's dream...

[Mark C.]

neilestrick, on 29 June 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

My favorite was a kiln in a large office that was being used as storage. The kiln was too close to the wall, the floor was carpeted, and the room was being used for paper storage. Hundreds of reams of paper on shelves surrounding the kiln. Pyromaniac's dream...

Neil
To bad it did not have fireworks too with the 4th of July close-that would be cool-I'm pyro at heart-also know as one who loves to fire and glaze-not a true mud potter.
Mark

[JBaymore]

neilestrick, on 29 June 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

My favorite was a kiln in a large office that was being used as storage. The kiln was too close to the wall, the floor was carpeted, and the room was being used for paper storage. Hundreds of reams of paper on shelves surrounding the kiln. Pyromaniac's dream...

Why is that a problem? You've heard of paper kilns, haven't you?

[LilyT]

JBaymore, on 29 June 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

LilyT, on 28 June 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

I'd like to clarify that when I mentioned (before) kilns running under the radar,
these kilns are not entirely uninspected, just unpermitted.

If "permitting" is required in the location that the kilns exist, then there are some potential BIG consequences that could crop up.

For example, if the property is insured by some company for fire, peremises liability, and other such, and there were a loss of some sort.......... if the installation is not a legal one... the insurance company can deny the claim....... even if the claim has NOTHING to do with the kiln at all. If it DOES involve the kiln... then you can be just about sure that they will be looking for the legality of the installation.

If (god forbid) the kiln should cause injury or death to an individual from some sort of accident... and it was not a legal installation and it can be proved that the owner of the kiln KNEW that it was not a legal installation,...... significant punitive legal damages could be assessed. Possibly criminal charges. A lot will depend on WHO go injured or killed and how legally aggressive they were. And the town officials could also be held liable if they knew that the kiln was there and did not make sure it was done legally.

Also a town that is not aggressively "looking" for such issues before the fact will usually look strongly at such issues AFTER that fact... and try to shift any potential blame for a "lack of compliance" off of themselves and onto the owner of the kiln (or the owner of the property the kiln is located on if it is a rental).

Those "nice" guys in the fire department are probably opening themselves up for potential issues also. If they KNOW that the installation is illegal.... and they "support" the installation ... they likely (at the least) could lose their jobs if anything happens and that situation is disclosed. Maybe where you live the government has an "amnesty" program for the kind of "monitoring and support" that the fire department is giving on these unpermitted installations.... but that is rare. Such things DO exist... like the EPA's compliance assistance program....... but I'd be surprised if a local town has such an official program.

In todays litigous world, it is generally not a good thing to play fast and loose with regulations. They tend to bite back hard. You don't want to be insured by "Just Lucky, Ltd." anymore.

best,

.............................john

John, thanks for the thoughtful comments. It is true we live in a litigious world. I certainly cannot recommend to
anyone to take risks. Personally, sometimes I justify certain financial risks when the important risks (for major things
like injury) are unaltered (and of course minimizing the risk - I don't WANT to have a fire nor hurt anyone), because
I have become tired of living in fear of litigation. (this is related to the non-pottery part of my professional
and business life and something I am evolving towards)
As for involving the fire department and the municipal jurisdiction, what reason would there er be to mention
that the kiln was vetted by so-and-so of the fire department... I'm sort of fascinated by the things you've
seen people do... if you have an answer to this one...
Do potters carry insurance for liabiity issues above and beyond regular business liability?
-Lily

[Mark C.]

I have an umbrella policy thats liability as well as my Business liability policy. Covers a bit more-like my boats if I hit someone.I pay a lot for insurance and I really do not like that. My deceased father was an insurance man and it still does not take the sour taste away .
Mark

[JBaymore]

LilyT, on 29 June 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Do potters carry insurance for liabiity issues above and beyond regular business liability?

The smart ones do.

It is not all that expensive, in general. That is because the incidence of actual losses is low.... which tells you something. And is good. But of YOU are the person getting sued on the rare occurance....... even if you WIN (because of legal defense costs) you will lose far more than the premiums cost. It is pretty cheap peace of mind.

Many better craft fairs require this kind of insurance for booth-holders. You can sometimes get really short trem policies for "premises liability" for a booth as a single event coverage. Usually costs from about $50 - $100.

best,

..............john


(See the new thread on business insurance in the Potters Council section too.)




EDIT: Oops... do you mean an umbrella general liability policy???????

[Mark C.]

John its called
Personal liability umbrella policy-this covers my property better at studio sales (19 years worth but no more) also my boating stuff
I also have a straight Business liability policy for my Business at shows and also it has a small fire insurance for shop
as my home owners does not cover studio for fire.
Mark

[rohini]

Mark C., on 21 June 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Thought I would write up a article on this later for CM so heres a preview with much left out.
We made a gas salt kiln here about 12 years ago-we fire it for fun ( not production work) about once a year with a group of potters.
My best friend is an expert wielder (Petter Brant) so he did the wields with my buzz box
I stated this kiln in collage art program-poured the slab and got a 199 credit for that -I later graduated that year(1976) and within 1o-15 years put the 100 feet of 2 inch gas line out to slab. Thought about a well drafting roof for about 25 years and knew what I wanted-we build this low sloped wing shape with non rustable materials put a stainless steel chimney on it with a stainless rain gutter.
We group fire this yearly as a social treat especial for newbies to salt.
I really like salt in the 70's at art school and always wanted my own-this was the 1st salt kiln in Humboldt County since the school one was closed down by the fire dept in the really 70s at our last firing with it.This kiln has some innovative material uses.
Mark

where are you in humboldt? i'm in so hum- and would love to see your kiln!

[LilyT]

JBaymore, on 03 July 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

LilyT, on 29 June 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Do potters carry insurance for liabiity issues above and beyond regular business liability?

The smart ones do.

It is not all that expensive, in general. That is because the incidence of actual losses is low.... which tells you something. And is good. But of YOU are the person getting sued on the rare occurance....... even if you WIN (because of legal defense costs) you will lose far more than the premiums cost. It is pretty cheap peace of mind.

Many better craft fairs require this kind of insurance for booth-holders. You can sometimes get really short trem policies for "premises liability" for a booth as a single event coverage. Usually costs from about $50 - $100.

best,

..............john


(See the new thread on business insurance in the Potters Council section too.)




EDIT: Oops... do you mean an umbrella general liability policy???????

Hi, John,

Ok, point taken about being smart and carrying insurance :-). It seems hard to
figure out what type of insurance one might need. I don't know the names of the
types of insurance which makes me more confused too.

For my office at work (which I rent), I have liability (person trips in my bathroom and hits their head and
sues me) and property ( theft, water damage, fire, but not earthquake). I used to
carry something called an umbrella policy, and my understanding of that was that
would cover me in case someone decided they wanted to sue me as a person to
get more money than my other insurance covered (added on to the above, and also if
I help out a stranger in some circumstance but they sue me instead (not likely)).
Is premises liability that you mention the same as property liability? Or both?

Then I was also advised that if my business assets primarily consist of debt, that you
could reasonably skip carrying the liability, which would otherwise only tempt
people to sue you. (there's definitely truth to that in my work, lawyers search
for those with deep pockets and pull them in)


I know people who worry about if someone who's invited onto their premises to
observe, purchase (open studios), or use their studio (rental, as a student, or for
a group firing), sues them... that must be general liability but I bet having a
wood kiln changes it. Do you think these circumstances are reasonable to
insure against as a hobbyist?

And if you don't mind saying, who is it that you obtain your insurance from?

warm regards,
Lily