[James Freeman]

Does this forum replace clayart? The clayart server seems to be down, and I have not received any posts for days. Has it been killed?

Thank you.

...James

[Sherman]

James Freeman, on 31 March 2010 - 10:37 AM, said:

Does this forum replace clayart? The clayart server seems to be down, and I have not received any posts for days. Has it been killed?

Thank you.

...James

James,

This forum is completely separate from Clayart, which is alive and well---but it is in the middle of renewing licensing status, so hold tight and it will be back soon.

[SShirley]

James,

This seems like it might be an even better forum for exchange of information, since it seems we can attach photos and videos to these posts, and I like how the posts can be arranged in categories. I'm looking forward to seeing how it works out.

Sylvia

James Freeman, on 31 March 2010 - 10:37 AM, said:

Does this forum replace clayart? The clayart server seems to be down, and I have not received any posts for days. Has it been killed?

Thank you.

...James

[annbclay]

Hopefully this forum will remain a learning forum and not go the way of Clayart with a lot of philosophical discussion, opinion and political commentary to weed through.

[Cindy in SD]

annbclay, on 02 April 2010 - 09:50 AM, said:

Hopefully this forum will remain a learning forum and not go the way of Clayart with a lot of philosophical discussion, opinion and political commentary to weed through.

Yes! Amen! I gave up on Clayart long, long ago for that reason.

[MadMudder]

Hopefully this forum will remain a learning forum and not go the way of Clayart with a lot of philosophical discussion, opinion and political commentary to weed through.
If this is an issue, it is not so hard to open another topic category, another board I use has both a Politic section and a Water Cooler section.
When people post topics not pertaining to the subject at hand, the posts get moved.
This forum is really exciting. I already know to look seriously at the L&L kilns!

B

[Earthwood]

I found clayart to be a great interface for finding information, but a terrible interface for sharing it! I hope this forum gets as much traffic!

- S.K.

[OOF!]

Clayart was great - for 1994. The world has moved on, and with hope, this forum will be a viable alternative to that dinosaur.

[CarlCravens]

I still prefer a good mailing list over web forums (they are so hard to keep up with, whereas email just comes right to me), but clayart suffers from being too old. I've been participating in and managing online discussion groups since 1986, and my experience shows that all groups go through a set of phases... most groups enter a stagnation phase that they never pull out of, either remaining stuck indefinitely or just dying out entirely. As the stagnation phase approaches, the only solution seems to have been rebirth... the group has to undergo a substantial transformation. Not just a reinvigoration, but a fundamental change, and that's hard to do.

That transformation often takes place in the form of a rebirth... a dying of the old group as a new, different group is formed out of it. The focus changes (philosophical discussion of art and pottery is forbidden, as with PotteryBasics on YahooGroups) and/or the old guard hang on to the old group as it loses participants to the new group.

Very often, it is the "old guard" that is the problem. (And I say that having *been* part of the old guard on a mailing list that I closed after 12 years.) They've been there, done that, they're tired of seeing the same basic questions come up over and over. They've run out of things practical things to talk about and turn to philosophy and criticism... and often that criticism is aimed at the newcomers to the list.

(And I'm not talking specifically about clayart... I've seen this many times in many groups. My wife and I have actually considered writing a book about managing online communities. There aren't many people who have been doing it for 24 years.)

[Chris Campbell]

My number one wish for this forum is that we stay civil ... Ask, answer questions with respect.
Opinions offered with tolerance for a different point of view.

[JBaymore]

annbclay, on 02 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Hopefully this forum will remain a learning forum and not go the way of Clayart with a lot of philosophical discussion, opinion and political commentary to weed through.

Hum............

In my opinion, active philosophical discussion, listening to and digesting the content of others opinions on a subject, and even understanding varying political pursuasions and how they might impact perceptions IS a "learning environment".

Ceramics is about so much more than just which kiln to buy, how to fix pinholes, how to increase sales at craft fairs, and so on. The aesthetic and philospohical to me are totally "fair game" relative to ceramics.

Chris is onto the core issue.... civility.

best,

....................john

[Christine]

Chris Campbell, on 30 July 2010 - 04:03 PM, said:

My number one wish for this forum is that we stay civil ... Ask, answer questions with respect.
Opinions offered with tolerance for a different point of view.

I couldn't agree more, Chris - I so enjoy this forum and (even at 63!) am learning so much from reading all the various posts AND I've had such kind feedback from the posts I've made. Thanks everybody!

[GEP]

I have no problem with philosophical matters either. But just like any topic being discussed in an online forum, there needs to be a level of quality. And to add myself to the chorus of folks agreeing with Chris C., decorum and civility should be everyone's priority.

For example, recently on clayart there was a days-long philosophical exchange about whether it's appropriate to tell racist jokes on the listerv. It was very mean-spirited. I hope this forum maintains more common sense than that.

-Mea

[Jennifer Harnetty]

CarlCravens, on 30 July 2010 - 04:51 PM, said:

I still prefer a good mailing list over web forums (they are so hard to keep up with, whereas email just comes right to me)

Carl (and anyone else who's interested),

Just an FYI, you can choose "Watch Forum" (top right of the landing page for each forum), and choose to get a digest emailed to you each day. You can do this with individual topics too.

All best,
Jennifer

[CarlCravens]

Jennifer Harnetty, on 30 July 2010 - 01:20 PM, said:

Just an FYI, you can choose "Watch Forum" (top right of the landing page for each forum), and choose to get a digest emailed to you each day. You can do this with individual topics too.

Daily digests are the Devil's work.

[Sherman]

CarlCravens, on 30 July 2010 - 02:06 PM, said:

Jennifer Harnetty, on 30 July 2010 - 01:20 PM, said:

Just an FYI, you can choose "Watch Forum" (top right of the landing page for each forum), and choose to get a digest emailed to you each day. You can do this with individual topics too.

Daily digests are the Devil's work.

Yes, Carl, you are right, but I cannot live without them. I get them for this forum as well as Clayart.

Sherman

[OOF!]

Quote

For example, recently on clayart there was a days-long philosophical exchange about whether it's appropriate to tell racist jokes on the listerv. It was very mean-spirited.

Here's a good example that Clayart, for all the good that is does, is outmoded.
It's 2010, not 1950. I find that a "discussion," of whether racist jokes should be allowed on a ceramics listserv, astounding. It is a CERAMICS discussion, for crying out loud! What possible use could devisive jokes serve to a ceramics group? It's unnecessary, in my opinion, and should not even be allowed, much less discussed. There are a million other platforms for that kind of thing on the 'net, should you be so inclined.
I'm just guessing, but I think racism is OUT in 2010. I should be quite suprised to find that kind of thing on this forum; I think the way forward is clear.
(And i RARELY use emoticons. Very rarely. Almost never. In fact, this might be the first time in two years.)

[Marcia Selsor]

I like this forum, but still follow Clayart when time permits. Sometimes I leave Clayart for months. I don't like the prolonged arguments, running commentary, and grand standing. Way back when it was fun to be able to have a morning coffee and answer questions or gleen info from the group. After 15 years of the same old questions and same wild hairs, it is best to move on. This forum reminds me of what clayart was like 15 years ago. Plus, using the topics and then subject lines, it is easy to focus.
Civility is key.

[hansen]

I have been on and off and on again with ClayArt since the late '90's. It is an excellent forum in terms of a gathering of full-time professional studio potters who excelling in throwing on the wheel. Then there are others that tag along, for whatever reason, and are kind of kept in place. The number of higher education ceramics faculty has always been lacking. This is probably due to time constraints, but it gives clayart subscribers the illusion that they are are the center of the ceramics world when in fact they are peripheral. I sort of prefer the peripheral, however, but occasionally have to post a reality check? Anyway, that having been said, those people have a wealth of knowledge and expertise still unrivaled in the online communities. Clayart has many technical problems however, hardware as well as software. email is good however, because it is www independent

I have been a subscriber to ClayCraft at google groups to, moderated by Lee Love. If you are into Leach, Hamada, Cardew, Yanagi, Kawaii, MacKenzie, Byron Temple, or other "MINGEI" or "crafts revival" artists I recommend subscribing. It is also centered around wood fire. Google groups are dependent on browser and web access

I was active in the IRC #pottery channel at StarLink, but the group went quiet and the host server is experiencing downtime, even though the software is intact. This is Mishy Katz group. It was great to get this since it is not on the www

There are about 6,000 potters worldwide on FaceBook, and master Shigaraki potter Shiho Kanzaki heads up the list with almost 5,000 potter and other friends, and posts daily. We are deeply honored to have such leadership. The list of potter names on FaceBook is as of right now, the Who's-Who of international potters connected online. However, it is probably the most web dependent, and the downside is that there is no email access to other members

rec.crafts.pottery I haven't checked on in years, it used to be a great place to use for free advertising purposes. Also independent of the web.

There is probably also a smattering of other groups, a cone 6 group, and a few wood-fire groups, I don't know about all of them, and a few other forums similar to this one. This is the one ACerS is promoting, however, and is the most connected to ACerS publications, which are indispensable if you are a potter in the USA.

I generally use all the resources, it has been possible for me to contribute more here than elsewhere.
h a n s e n

Marcia Selsor, on 31 July 2010 - 09:02 AM, said:

I like this forum, but still follow Clayart when time permits. Sometimes I leave Clayart for months. I don't like the prolonged arguments, running commentary, and grand standing. Way back when it was fun to be able to have a morning coffee and answer questions or gleen info from the group. After 15 years of the same old questions and same wild hairs, it is best to move on. This forum reminds me of what clayart was like 15 years ago. Plus, using the topics and then subject lines, it is easy to focus.
Civility is key.

[JBaymore]

hansen, on 31 July 2010 - 11:55 AM, said:

The number of higher education ceramics faculty has always been lacking. This is probably due to time constraints, but it gives clayart subscribers the illusion that they are are the center of the ceramics world when in fact they are peripheral.

Personally, I don't think it has always been lacking. Depends on how far back you go.

As a long term college professor, I used to be very involved with posting on CLAYART (look in the archives ). And many others from academia used to be on CLAYART actively also. CLAYART started via the academic community. In fact, I was involved in some of the first micro-computer utilization in studio applications and in college teaching (http://www.johnbaymo...CAcomputer.html ). If you read that article quoted there which I wrote for the 84 Boston NCECA journal, you'll notice the comments I made about creating an online potter's information center, which I also made even more strongly in the live panel presentation ("Computers In The Studio").

Those early ideas eventually evolved into CeramicsWeb and CLAYART. Richard Burkett announced the formation of the CLAYART listserve format in an email on August 17, 1992. There were tons of "academics" on there in the early days.

Lately I simply subscribe to the CLAYART list and glance at the daily digests when I can to see if something interests me. Occasionally, I still get the temptation to answer something, but then I come to my senses .


As to the "why" of why I am no longer posting there ........... difficult to be frank on this:

When one posts a simple answer to a simple question on CLAYART, you will then get 6,000,000,000,000 other people posting their personal opinions as to exactly why the answer given is not PRECISELY correct to the nth degree and maybe omitted this certain minor aspect that happens in one-in-a-million cases. At least 3,000,000,000,000 of the people commenting on this have probably been doing clay work for one or two years as an avocation and have taken three classes at a community education center. So in too many cases, the persons doing all this commenting do not have the background or facts to say what they are saying. Worse, they seem to lack the common sense to realize this fact.

So what happens is that eventually you end up spending hours and hours and hours over days and days and days trying to steer the discussion back on track and justify your previous answer. What was a simple "case specific" answer that you wanted to give to be sincerely helpful to a single person turns into a "project".

And the correct answers to 90% of the questions showing up on CLAYART are:

1. ) Get even a basic book on ceramics and read it.

2.) Enroll in some ceramics classes.

3.) Ask your teacher.

4.) Test that and you can answer it yourself.

5.) When you have put in the years of study and hard work, you will easily understand this. An email answer is not the best solution for you educationally.


So a vast amount of the daily traffic there that you end up wading through could be eliminated if people just used the appropriate and necessary resources to study the material, and not want the "instant answers.....just add water".

Still worse, when someone spends hour after hour giving of themselves on that difficult and contentious venue, you get little to no "thanks" messages from the people benefiting from the free information. Just more and more questions.

The problem is not CLAYART, per se, it is the fact that too many people who really do not know what they are talking about tend to shout the loudest these days. And also that humbleness and civility and respect are kinda' dead in the age of Ren and Stimpy and South Park. The same danger that affects CLAYART certainly lurks in every online community.

CLAYART was and and likely still is a great resource. You unfortunately have to take it for what it is. And have the smarts to sort out the good people with solid information from the vast amount of "chaff".

Rant off...........

best,

...............john