[Chris Campbell]

I agree Slurrious ...
in some cultures independent styles are frowned upon until one can demonstrate a mastery of the craft. "Mastery" meaning they can do it as well as the Masters.
Art students are a routine site in museums as they spend hours trying to learn/see/copy how others were able to capture the moment. So why should potters be exempt from trying to teach their hands / muscles / minds to execute a certain technique?
Dwight Holland has donated his huge pottery collection to East Carolina University on the condition that any pottery student can take any piece back to their work area so they can learn from it. Learn from it is the key. You can't really learn how it was done until you can actually do it yourself. Also, you don't appreciate how hard it is until you try.
Granted, you don't stay planted there ... you move on unless your chosen profession will be forgery.

[Lucille Oka]

I didn't make myself clear. I should have said 'real teachers' do not accuse their students of stealing. Students do not steal from teachers they imitate or mimic and should be expected to do so. If a teacher does not want a student to copy their work, they should only teach methods and processes and strongly emphasize the student’s individual design possibilities.

[Marcia Selsor]

In reading this discussion I am reminded of several great teachers I have known. I was at Super Mud in State College, Pa with Frances Senska when we listened to a criticism of production potters throwing the same mug over and over. France's said to me, "I have NEVER thrown the same mug twice!". She was my mentor in Montana as well as a friend of DaveShaner and the teacher of both RudyAutio and Peter Voulkos.
Another comment I heard was from Paul Soldner was that he use a cast of his naval for his signature "because everyone's is different." We all touch clay with a unique impression. I agree with?ucille about teaching. You musts teach students the how-to and lead them to find their path.That is teaching. I find teaching in Texas to be interestingly different from Montana where I taught for 25 years. I find it teaching to a recipe of predetermined objectives. y new students who had previous teachers want to be told what to do. I told them they needs a body of work by the end of the semester after starting them off with a few problems. it is a different world down here than from way up North. both my students and I are working our way out together.
marcia

[ThisIsMelissa]

My love affair with clay is only beginning (having started in early 2011). I find myself being attracted to certain forms or techniques and initially, I find that I want to copy. For my own purpose, I think I want to copy so that I can learn the technique. But then later, do what I feel led to do with the technique.

I really have enjoyed hand-building. I've given pieces as gifts and my friend even bought a couple last week when she needed some last minute Christmas gifts. They weren't anything spectacular.... certainly not a copy from the artist I was inspired by.... different forms, different uses and definitely different glazes.

I have to say that I have whole boards on Pintrest that are devoted to inspiring clay works. Sometimes, I'll try to connect with the artist.... maybe asking about a technique or a glaze. I NEVER EVER presume that THEIR process is somehow free for MY taking. It's not! One artist was very forthright in saying, "my processes are patented and images are copyrighted" so I never share the techniques. I respect that and I respect her for taking steps to protect what it is that she does and does so very well. There are, however, some people who are very willing to share and even WANT to give advise so that you don't have to spend years and years trying to overcome some obstacle that they've now figured out. I think of these folks as mentors. They WANT to share their knowledge and experience. These are the people who do "how to" vids for CAD, who give workshops at local studios, etc. They are putting themselves out there as a mentor, they're teaching their specific way of doing things-techniques, tools, etc. They say, "give it a try.... let me know how it turns out". They get satisfaction and joy from sharing.

I actually get offended when people say to me, "oh, you're so creative. There's not a creative bone in my body." Well, I actually do NOT think I'm creative. Not at all. I think I can look at a piece and figure out how it was made and maybe make an attempt to make something similar. But I am NOT creative. I don't innovate. I don't do anything that's new. Really, there are very few innovators in this world. I don't even call myself an artist.... artists are creative.... they create work that move people. I'm very utilitarian in my thinking. "If I make this, how might it be used?" I'm careful to not assign names to things if they're not specific use (like a butter dish, for instance). I know, the general public has a hard time working with something that doesn't have a label.... but I at least like to challenge folks to think in that direction. I gave one of my pieces as a gift on Christmas. I didn't say that I had intended the use to be. But the recipient immediately said, "ah, a spoon rest". Cool, SHE assigned a use to it .... it happened to be the same use I'd originally started with, but I'd have been perfectly ok if she'd have said, "ah, a ring dish".

Where am I going with this? I dunno. I guess I'd love it if truly innovative works and their artisans could be respected and allowed to have their moment in the sun. Let them collect their reward for creating something new and exciting. But if that same artist is going to put themselves out there and give workshops and create "how to" vids of their process, then who are we to judge if a student of that mentor goes on to do something that's even more amazing?

[Benhim]

We all learn through copying and imitating those who have come before us. Eventually good artists make what most would consider original works. It's only through using others techniques, and studying the styles we see that we might create our own style and if we're lucky, improve our field in some way. You've got an advantage over me in some respects as I've been making pots for over 20 years. You've got a resource like CAD from the start.

[Pres]

SShirley, on 27 December 2011 - 09:45 AM, said:

Teachers do not accuse their students of stealing. Teachers pass on what they know and love to do it.
[/quote]

We must have known different teachers. Some DO accuse their students of stealing.
[/quote]

I remember a very talented painting student in undergrad that had a painting that was in the year end show, spotlighted. Long story short he copied a painting exactly-his style, but same lighting, color, composition, even the technique. He was discovered by a visiting professor-the department was embarrassed, the professor was embarrassed the student was expelled. The idea was that given an assignment on a deadline he had cheated-everyone. Not the same as a student doing something in the same style as the teacher with a different composition, etc. In ceramics, I would see students try to create the same as the teacher-trying to throw loosely like Dontigny on the wheel for raku- disastrous! Others would try to create wall tiles like Stephenson-never the same and poorly planned. When does one move from student, to artist or potter? We have tried to answer this question in other strands. This "mimicry" strand is part of the answer. Another part is having the discipline to throw out a bad pot before it gets fired.

[teardrop]

I've always heard the phrase "Imitation is the highest form of flattery" ("Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" is attributed to Charles Caleb Colton (1780-1832).

When I started to think about making peices other than thrown peices I headed to the Net to see what others have made. There I found things that drew me in and sparked my interest in a certain style or form.

Yes, I tried to copy those forms. However, it was with only marginal success...and while what i ended up kinda/sorta looked like the peice i was trying to emulate, it was quite a bit off the mark of a true "copy". As i did further peices in the same >style< I began to see that I was imparting my own thoughts/tangents/expression into the peice and was moving farther and farther away..not closer to..the original peice.

I also noticed that i couldn't/can't yet even copy my own work. LOL. Try as I might....same starting shapes....none of them were >exactly< the same.

maybe someday, huh? LOL.

thanks for the question

teardrop

[Benhim]

It's really a matter of respect right? Making exact duplicate work of someone who is currently selling that same work is disrespectful. I can duplicate all my instructors, not just make work somewhat similar to theirs, I mean copy exactly. Out of respect I don't use those skills and knowledge to copy their works. It's also a matter of self respect, with out creating my own work I would not feel fulfilled. That said, I still would postulate that no one owns a style of work, or a type of design. It simply a matter of respecting each other's work.

[Dinah]

I use teapots by Geoffrey Whiting -- deceased UK potter -- almost daily. When I recently wanted to throw a series of teapots with fresher shapes and shuck off some old lid/gallery ideas which I felt lacked proper craftsmanship...and, frankly, I could do better; I decided a tutorial was in order and placed a GW on the ware board beside me. His are thrown in porcelain, probably gloss fired to ^9/10. His lids are are beautifully set in and I had several aha! moments about spout placement and finishing the line from base of spout through the body. Are they just like Whiting's? I think not, but the tutorial has helped my teapots move forward.

Spout placement is an interesting social construct possibly dividing east/west tea preferences. Reading Robin Hopper's Functional Pottery last night, I came across the idea that stronger English brewed -- not stewed -- tea likes to come from a teapot with the base of the spout set down the body. Now, am I going to have to label my teapots Western tea brewing or Eastern tea brewing? Perhaps even cite the best blend of teas to use in each pot. Now, there's a marketing idea!

[Lucille Oka]

Dinah, on 01 January 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

I use teapots by Geoffrey Whiting -- deceased UK potter -- almost daily. When I recently wanted to throw a series of teapots with fresher shapes and shuck off some old lid/gallery ideas which I felt lacked proper craftsmanship...and, frankly, I could do better; I decided a tutorial was in order and placed a GW on the ware board beside me. His are thrown in porcelain, probably gloss fired to ^9/10. His lids are are beautifully set in and I had several aha! moments about spout placement and finishing the line from base of spout through the body. Are they just like Whiting's? I think not, but the tutorial has helped my teapots move forward.

Spout placement is an interesting social construct possibly dividing east/west tea preferences. Reading Robin Hopper's Functional Pottery last night, I came across the idea that stronger English brewed -- not stewed -- tea likes to come from a teapot with the base of the spout set down the body. Now, am I going to have to label my teapots Western tea brewing or Eastern tea brewing? Perhaps even cite the best blend of teas to use in each pot. Now, there's a marketing idea!

I found the sweetest little book at the local library. It is called Victoria & Albert Museum Teapots in Pottery and Porcelain. Small Picture Book No.9
The approximate size of the booklet is 4”X7”. It has 28 pictures all in black and white. Most of the teapots are 18^th Century but there are a few from the 19^th Century. There are plenty of ideas for you here. These potters are long gone they can't mind their pots being used as a 'tutorial'.

[Jules]

This is an interesting question for me as a) I have had my work or ideas 'stolen' which at the time annoyed me a great deal and b ) I felt frustrated when continually asked at university to reference famous artists' work for inspiration. Personally I don't look to others for inspiration or ideas. I'm talking in general here not specific to ceramics, which is a new subject to me. In my opinion there is little to no merit in 'copying' others' art - I don't think it's a learning tool whatsoever, it's a hindering tool to true creativitiy! I very much doubt that the most successful and emotionally satisfied contemporary or historic artists spent all day looking over other people's shoulders for ideas - 'picking up other people's cig butts' is what my old art tutor used to call it. However, of course, analysing others' work, studying it, methods, techniques, what it represents, yes, is vital. No offence to those who do, but I honestly couldn't be bothered to recreate work someone else has already done it would be a major yawn and I couldn't do it for money.

As for being copied, hey ho, if that's what someone needs to do let them get on with it, of course not if serious breach of copyright or intellectual property rights. I'm atheist but the saying 'Let Go and Let God' when it comes to those people helps me. Also, I learned it's best to get on with ideas than discuss them with others - collaboration is one thing, feeding the pigeons is another.

[Benhim]

I find it an odd notion that people would choose to ignore all those who have come before them. I've have found much insight from previous potter's works, in all aspects of the ceramics process. Notably form and function, as well as a wealth of knowledge about glaze chemistry from the thousand years or so I've been able to research of pottery history through books, images, web pages, and knowledge passed down through word of mouth. This has dramatically changed not only my work, but my process and my mindset toward ceramics as a whole. I have lived during one of the best times in Ceramic art history. The industrial revolution has led to manufacturing processes that make my job as a ceramic artist possible with out having a dozen or so men working in my studio preparing all the various parts of my process. I can be a one man band in the field of ceramics which is very liberating. Once we understand how far we've come, and where we are, it's easier to see where we're going. Even if where we choose to be is back mixing our own clay and glaze from hand dug materials in our local area like the potters used to have to do.

[phill]

Austin Kleon has a book that just came out called "Steal Like and Artist." It looks like an interesting read! austinkleon.com